Ketamine For Depression? (Page 5) (Top voted first)

It was recommended by the members of a separate thread that one be started that directly relates to ketamine and it's use to treat depression.

If anyone besides myself would like to discuss it's use as a treatment for depression, feel free to post your questions, answers and experiences here.

This thread is an offshoot of a related one that discussed a treatment of Scopolamine for depression.

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Paula, "Clint" posted on Sept 17 re his intranasal ket success - I think I "replied" to him today requesting script details.

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@Paula Also if you can wait a few more months (I know it is difficult we are all in similar places) The Intra-nasal Ketamine protocols will be finalized and more doctors are likely to go with a Phase 2 trial than a pre-phase 2 trial.

I know that UAB (University of Alabama at Birmingham) is scheduled to participate in those IN trials in the spring, though I do not know an exact date.

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Yes! I do not know the cost, but will ask on Wed when I get there - again. Call Del at 404-727-3903. I will ask re cost, but Del will probably know/be a better resource. If u feel up to it, check back in with what u learn. Let me know re any other questions

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I am interested in the intra-nasal Ket. I live in the suburbs of Chicago. Anyone have knowledge of prescribing Docs in my area? Even if you aren't here and have a prescribing Doc, could you please share, maybe they would provide a referral.

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hi guys. i'm 'john' from the original thread on ketamine. i think i was the first to post on that thread...

i am still alive. in deep depression though. so, it was a good surprise that a new thread was started off the original postings.

not sure why i am posting except to say that reading all your posts brought some hope. you can read my experience with ketamine in the other thread. i only had one infusion.

my question is; anybody here have a response after more than one infusion, when the first infusion did not work? dr feifel down in san diego told me that if a person does not respond to the first infusion, there is little chance of responding to multiple infusions. i am hoping since last year this may have changed since i was one of th first that he treated at his clinic.

i alos sent a email off to dr fiefel after reading all of this. have not heard back. i will report here what he tells me. he must now have a better idea i would hope about the ketamine infusions and protocol.

also, just to add; dr feifel uses no anesthesiologist when he does his infusions. just a nurse. he is very easy to work with compared to my ect doc at ucla who requires not only a lot more money, but much more paperwork, tests, etc.

i look forward to reading more. hoping we all can find some peace.

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Hi, just reading your posts for the first time today. I pick up my first in approx three hours from now so I am excited. Reading the forum I am a little concerned at the numbers saying ketamine didn't work for them - what percentage do you guys think get long term success with ketamine nasal

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@citygirl I suspect you would be better off finding a 3 week period and following the established protocols. If cost is a major factor, why not investigate the Dr. in NY offering treatment for $250?

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UPDATE: The Chicago GLXY-13 study runs up to 17 weeks and entails weekly INJECTIONS. I am weaning off a couple medications in preparation for the initial medical review. I was hoping for infusions but staying local will be less intrusive right now. I am feeling a bit hopeful :-)

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Hi all thanks for your comments. Paula, I am from Las Vegas and the ketamine is only about $49 for a months supply.
Just a word of caution - I don't want to mislead anyone at this early stage, I do still consider myself depressed, only time will tell if results are real and lasting.
Happy holidays!

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Tomorrow (Monday) is my medical appointment for the GLYX-13 study. After a couple telephone interviews, I do not anticipate any obstacles and expect to start infusions within a couple weeks. The protocol seems very poorly written. Curious. I am grateful to have the opportunity and trying not to think of the impact if I find no relief. The lack of response to VNS was difficult. The lack of response to ECT was devastating.

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I had a VNS implanted in 2006. Although I was enrolled in a clinical trial, BCBS paid for the surgery. The device was free as part of the study and the surgery would have been free IF my insurance would not cover. (If that isn't insurance fraud, I don't know what is.) After about a year it was clear to me something was wrong as I no longer felt it firing. In 2008, only after I insisted, a representative from Cyberonics flew out from Texas and met with me and the neuro surgeon at Rush. An x-ray clearly showed the lead was frayed. How that is possible, I have no idea. I wad scheduled for surgery to remove the original device and lead and to have them replaced. There was a great deal of scar tissue around the lead and the surgery took several hours longer than anticipated. My vocal cords took a beating and I lost my voice completely within 3 months of that surgery. My pdoc turned the device off and , fortunately, my voice eventually returned. We turned it back on a year later, but my voice began to deteriorate almost immediately. At that point I gave up. Additionally, since the 1st device was removed, I was dropped from the study and the cost of the VNS was on me. Neither Cyberonics nor Rush mentioned this. I assumed the 2nd device was covered under the study since it malfunctioned. I found out I'd been dropped when the bills came. I was very fortunate that BCBS paid the 2nd time as well- including the device. I filed a complaint regarding the co-pay and not being notified I was liable for the cost of the replacement device. In the end, it was a rather sad experience for me. I have pronounced scars on my upper chest and neck. I was very dissappointed with the surgeon as well as Cyberonics. The new lead is very tight and uncomfortable. (The original lead did not cause such discomfort.) I am not able to have certain MRI's (and was disqualified for several imagining ketamine studies). The device will need to be removed in the future if certain medical treatments are required. All in all, a bad experience but, had it helped my depression, it would have been worth it, of course.

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I've posted previously about Ketamine working for me. I didn't realize till your post that my depression is of the glutamate model and why Ketamine works. I've always been into working out and eating well along with taking vitamins and various work out supplements.

How can I figure what my bodies vitamin, mineral, etc...levels checked to see how I can improve my bodies "normal" amounts? Also, I've always been intrigued about going to a Doctor visit were they monitor parts of your brain and how you react to various things presented to you. Can I get these done with costing $1000+ dollars?
Or does anyone have experience with insurance companies covering these cost?

Those are not very technically correct questions, but they're real. I am bi-polar and have came along way from where I was. I don't want to stop here and be satisfied. Cognitively I have a lot of room to grow. My head just can get cleared up. I will be 30yrs soon and my wife has our first child on the way. I want to keep learning about my body to be a better me.

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@Jim D.
If you could please email me, I would like to discuss your experience with Iboga in more detail. Thanks.
{edited for privacy}

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@Clint, Sorry for the very delayed response:

Please be aware that Bi-Polar Depression AKA Manic Depression, while it has some of the same symptoms and is frequently misdiagnosed/ mistaken for/as a form of depression, is in fact a very different disease than the other forms we frequently talk about here.

Last I read, Bi-polar disorder was genetically linked to juvenile diabetes as strange as that sounds; As in: they tend to run in the same families and seem to share at least some of the same genes. However, this is neither here nor there with regards to your question.

First, you asked about cost. Just the equipment usage for an fMRI at the University of Michigan for example is $585 an hour. This does not include associated costs. However, you would have to get a doctor/ researcher to sign off on it, read the results etc etc. Total costs, self pay, are likely close to a PET scan, which for the head is ~$6,700.

As others have pointed out, this is simply not cost efficient for the average patient.

You asked about minerals/ vitamins / etc:
Something to remember here is that there are 3 different levels of minerals in your body that get measured...

Plasma levels: This is what is available to your typical tissue as any given time. It is the level in your blood plasma.

Tissue levels: This is what your body has for use in a particular organ.

Brain/ synapse levels: Your brain and spinal column are semi-isolated from the rest of your body by what is frequently called the blood/ brain barrier. Plasma/ serum levels influence brain/ synapse levels, but your body still has to transport it across the barrier. Presently, there is no good way to measure levels inside your brain for most vitamins and minerals.

If you are willing to try some experiments on yourself, try this:
Stop drinking any diet drinks and artificial sweeteners
Take Calcium Citrate and Magnesium Citrate in a 2 to 1 ratio. For an average sized man look at taking 800mg a day. But wait you say the RDA is only 400mg a day. True but several studies have shown that patients with major depression have a high Ca to Mg ratio in their cerebrospinal fluid (too little Mg for the Ca present)
Take a sublingual B-Complex tablet.

Take the Calcium and Magnesium at least 45 minutes before any iron containing foods.

Try this for 6 weeks in addition to what your doctor has prescribed.

Why should this work?
Magnesium fits into the Glutamate model for depression quite nicely. There are several papers dealing with the subject and it hits the same damaged spots as Ketamine does.

Avoid MSG, in fact avoid anything with Glutamate or Aspartates in them. Remember, this is an experiment to see if you fit the model and if you are deficient.

Excess amounts of magnesium can cause stomach upset / mild diarrhea. If you find this the case for you, back off on both Calcium and Magnesium.

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@Clint,
That is the theory, and you want 800+mg of Magnesium. Citrate is the most common of the ones to look for. If you have exercise supplement, you may find Magnesium Taurate more available.

Avoid magnesium glutamate, magnesium aspartate and magnesium oxide, as previously stated, in fact try to avoid any foods or substances containing members of the aspartates and glutamates.

In theory, if your depression is of the Glutamate model (which is the form Ketamine best treats) then there is a strong likelihood you are Magnesium deficient in your cerebrospinal fluid. By getting sufficient Mg to your system, you can help protect the NMDA receptors that are damaged in the Glutamate model depression cycle. There still exists the issue of repairing the damage that has been done, and Ketamine (and possibly its analogues) theoretically does/do that.

Standard disclaimers apply:
There are many models for depression, Glutamate is one of them.
Depression has many causes, you should work with a professional who is trained and knowledgable in the subject field. Personally I recommend that said professional be your primary care doctor or a psychiatrist. I am neither, and I am not licensed to practice either field in my state, your state, or any state.
If there was a one size, one treatment fits all solution, we would not be having this conversation. Yada Yada.

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Keller.... please write a book!

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@stillhopeful Not responding to ketamine means you either are not metabolizing Ketamine properly (less likely) or your depression does not follow the Glutamate/ NMDA model (more likely), so given the magnesium issue is likely related to the same model, you are right, it would likely not be beneficial to you.

To quote a 2010 study "A basic understanding of the underlying disease processes in depression is lacking"

So we go back to what models do we know of and which one fits best:

Inflammation: There is a link between inflammation, immune response and depression.

Possible solutions: Diet: AKA the Anti inflammation food pyramid... As much as I commit the 'genetic fallacy" by rejecting an idea solely on the fact it has been shown on Dr. Oz, The Anti-inflammation diet is very close to the so called Mediterranean Diet. If your family has any roots in the Mediterranean area, I doubly recommend trying this diet. It is low on foods that trigger inflammation and the production of cytokines.

Modulating the immune response: AKA Low-Dose Naltrexone (LDN): Nancy Sajben Md out of Pain San Diego is doing some great work here and keeps an excellent resource list. She treats patients with Ketamine and with LDN for depression and has said that anyone failing Ketamine she would try on LDN. I have used LDN and it has provided some benefit for me personally. I am working on a video for youtube for the Muscadine Foundation on how to prep it for people who do not have a compounding pharmacy available. I will try to remember to post a link here so you all can see it and give your feedback.

I assume you have already tried and failed to respond to current SSRIs, SNRIs, Tri-cyclics and MAOIs, and further that you have had your hormones tested and they are in the normal range and that you do not snore (A common symptom of sleep apnea which can cause symptoms similar to depression)

I picked up literature on 3 novel treatments today during a massive 2.5 hour session with one of my doctors today, but have not had time to scan and listen to it. 2 Novel SSRIs, a bunch of updated CYP450 research and a novel NDMA/Glutamate med with off label uses. Give me a bit of time to digest the new data, see if/ where it fits and to read back your previous posts.


@Clint I will see if I can't answer your question on foods to avoid for your model fairly quickly. If I have not posted something in a couple (literally 2) days ping me. I have bad days a couple of days after I have to get out because of my agoraphobia.

@CityGirl, hopefully I can help myself and others through here and Muscadine, If I get well enough to write a book, actually have something useful to say and find a publisher be sure to check the dedications. I will owe a lot to the giants I stand on the shoulders of and my fellow depressees (I think that should be a word ;) ) Plus I expect you to keep kicking my butt.

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I have run into the same problem with some bums in Texas with the Western Union scam , lost $300 . I see that there are other sellers in the market but don't want to try again ..... Atre you saying that your doctor is writing you a script for the Ketamine .......... if so I would like to meet with him since I am in the market for a new doctor and the oones that I have gone to are to naive about the this , any inmfo would be helpful

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Trying to reply to John. Sir, the intranasal spray was prescribed by my neurologists and it is a prescription you have to take to a pharmacy that does prescription compounds. Once the prescription is compounded into a nasal spray by the pharmacy I use it for relief of terrifying pain and also and unbelievably realized it helped an ongoing 40 year depression of mine. I don't know how to explain the miracles associated with this compound. IT stops my pain dead in it s tracks and as a bonus I feel it has ended 40 years of sadness in my life that has held me back from everything. This compound is the most worthwhile thing I have ever heard of in the depression/pain related fields in years. The opportunity to have a new life is worth it all to me. I almost could not take the pain and the crap that comes along with until this was prescribed to me. I know nothing about the IV's but the nasal spray has been nothing short of a miracle for me. Hope that is of some help to you sir.
m

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I have suffered from clinical depression for over 6 years. my doctor who does my
ECT's tells the anesthesiologist to use ketamine. I have responded very well with this combination of ect and ketamine.

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