Ketamine For Depression? (Page 45) (Top voted first)

It was recommended by the members of a separate thread that one be started that directly relates to ketamine and it's use to treat depression.

If anyone besides myself would like to discuss it's use as a treatment for depression, feel free to post your questions, answers and experiences here.

This thread is an offshoot of a related one that discussed a treatment of Scopolamine for depression.

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Ketamine? Not likely. At least not for internal use. Topically it is great for joint pain.

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Please please please tell me what Dr will prescribe intranasal ketamine e spray for pain

Please, I can't afford those expensive infusions

{edited for privacy}

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Can u tell me which pharmacies are legit please

I'm desperate severe depression

Please
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Hello,

My 16 yr old has had severe depression and anxiety, suicidal for 2 years with inpatient treatments, tried 15 medications with severe side effects and no improvement. Subcutaneous Ketamine twice a week 40mg works but she has a needle phobia. She has returned to school for the first time in 2 years which is brilliant. Do you know how I can get nasal ketamine? We live in Australia. The cost of subcutaneous inj. is $150 each, which is not covered by public health and is becoming prohibitive. Thank you

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@Used Up: You say "There is a cure, but it is cheap and has an expired patent."

What is this cure? Ketamine is not a cure it is a treatment, an ongoing treatment for some, a booster for others but it is most certainly not a cure.

As to being in a right to work state and being fired for not being able to 100% do your job when others are less able to, you are wrong. You can still sue, so long as you can prove them wrong.

@MD Sorry but what you say is simply statistically improbable and quite frankly probably at the root of why you cannot get a doctor to listen to you. You come across as a polyabuser or drug seeking individual and doctors are trained to avoid such people. Nota Bene: I am not saying you are a poly abuser or drug seeking, simply that you present yourself as such in your comments.

The best way to get treatment is to find a psychiatrist who currently prescribes ketamine and work through their process.

You are very unlikely to convince a doctor who does not use ketamine to start using it. If you had been a patient of theirs for years and they were familiar with your condition and were willing to take a risk, then maybe. Some doctors are willing to do maintenance treatments after another doctor has set you up and done the initial dosing, but you will need to have your complete medical records transferred over to them.

I see so many people who are convinced that ketamine is a cure or the cure for them because they read something somewhere. Ketamine is a near last treatment presently. It is a treatment for the ER (1 time not repeatedly) or if you have failed 3 or more other models. It is not a first line treatment it is experimental.

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To Caiguise:
I just wanted to thank you for your help and advice that you have always been kind enough to give me in this room. I never had to question your motives for they were always sincere. I can't say that for all in this room for some are always judgemental and have to boast about their knowledge with the only motive I can find are to impress others with what they know. And that would be fine but unfortunately books can't always enable a person to understand what another human might be going through. You do. And I just wanted to thank you for your kindness, your intelligence and the years you have spent on this planet that speak volumes about your compassion and your willingness to help. You take care buddy.

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I believe the nasal is a lot weaker then the infusions but can be used as maintenance between infusions. I don't think the nasal alone would have great effects.

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Stella Said:"The nasal works very rapidly, even faster than infusions, and you are in complete control of the dose."

Absolutely false.

No IN can work faster than IV, as it must pass the mucus membranes before entering the vascular system.

Crimpshow: One of the actions of Ketamine is as an NMDAr, it is certainly not the only, nor is it the strongest available. Ketamine also works on inflammation and mono-amines as well.

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Md in training. Sir, I do not understand why you find it necessary to keep posting and trying your best to show off your knowledge and education at the expense of "real" people's feelings and those same folk's experiences. I had hoped that you might would just let it go but apparently you just continue. Why?: I think we all agree that you are perhaps well educated and I think that is something to be proud of. Its just that it seems no matter what anyone says you are very quick to talk condescendingly any way you can to that person. I had been learning a great deal of things on this site until you walked in and basically called me and someone else drug addicts and that we exhibiting drug seeking behavior among advising us of our own stupidity and your medical models etc. For one we are all trying to learn about help for depression for most of us have not had the luxury that other s have with other types of antidepressants. From what you have said your only encounter was a clinical trial where they gave you ketamine for same. If you are fighting depression then I must apologize for I am not trying to one up anyone. I would just like it where it used to he where free flowing ideas and thoughts could be transferred. Not a forum to pick fights and show off what one knows or does not know. Its really a shame to see folks not able to obtain any information for after you have had your say people just quit writing in. Haven't you noticed that.? And if you have then you must get off on cutting other's ideas or questions or challenge them at every point along the way. I am glad you know what you do but your constant correcting of folks is not helping. I don't appreciate being called a drug addict for you can't determine that over an online post. Wow. I worked for the FBI for 24 years and they need behavior profilers like that. I am either addicted or dependent on what doctors have given me. I would just hope that you understand that the folks you are talking to here are fighting REAL battles with depression and they do not need an additional comment to spiral them worse. Thank you.

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I live in Rockland county New York and am looking for a pain doctor to prescibe Ketamine nosal spray for my Complex Regional Pain sydome. I had treatments last week two 4 hour ketamine infusions that worked but was charge $350.00 as a break causse he usualy charges $550. then he sent me to a crooked doctor who said I have lyme on top of the CRPS MS fibromyalagia, chronic fatigue syndrome, degenerative disk disease, my spine is narrowing and I have sciolios siatica, listethisis and a nerve disease. my depression level is beyond resonpable. i feel like Im dying and my pain doctor moved to tx without setting me up with someone before he left. I cant can find a doctor where my insurance covers ketamine if you have CRPS because it was made for that perticular illmess becauise it works. I just cant find a doctor with the courage to stand up for me and treat me the correct way.

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Stella said: "As some have previously posted, it appears that doctors prefer the IV ketamine treatments. How much of this preference is due to the greater profit generated by the IV treatments is unknown but seems likely."

Or the fact that there has been 0 research on the long term effects of IN Ketamine in depression. I repeat 0.

No clinical trials, no published articles nothing. So when the DEA comes knocking, I know I was to be able to point to published evidence that says this is how you treat refractory depression according to the medical journals. Not "Well I thought it was a good idea and it seems to have worked for the patients I have seen."

Why people want to assume all doctors are greedy rather than looking at the arguments that have already been expressed, I do not know.

As for Mary... It has nothing to do with bravery if you have CRPS then you need to see a pain specialist. If you want Ketamine for depression, do not go see a pain specialist, go see one of the 20 or so Psychiatrists that treat depression with Ketamine, but expect to pay 300-1000 per infusion because that is what is being charged. If you are fortunate enough to have an insurance plan that covers experimental treatments, then you are lucky. The vast majority will not cover things that have not yet passed a stage 3 trial, which BTW Ketamine has not yet passed a stage 3 trial.

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Hi Fletch,

Was wondering if I could get more information about obtaining ketamine from Mexico. I have had 5 infusions but the effects have worn off. I get the capsules but they don't allow me to dissacciate like the infusions did. I have Complex Regional Pain Sydrome and suicidal depression amongst a host of other ailments all of which were ok after my infusions. I have depleted my savings and can not afford to get a booster I desperately need. If you could help me with the information I would be eternally grateful. Thank you and hope you are doing well, Mary

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To all of you there is never no thanks needed for the words that I say. Don't get me wrong I say every one of them from my heart and I mean them. Its just that it saddens me deeply that so many folks are having such ongoing struggles in their lives they get to this point a lot of us ( it seems ) in this room have found their lives. Mary, I wish you well with your daughter and boyfriend. I have 25 years experience in renting my own properties and if you were near I would have fun getting them legally removed. From what I think I have read is that you sound a bit like me. You try to be so kind to people, and then you find out what there real initiatives are. I won't pretend I know what it's like to have children for I don't but from what you say I am sure you have more than your hands full. One thing that might help is this list of assertive rights that I am copy/pasting for you. Maybe they will help you somewhat. They are very true and can provide you with strength when you need it the most. I guess I would not say this but when I hear a friend speaking of taking their life then it concerns me for I know that it is so easy to feel that way. I am basically what you would call an "empath" person at times where I take on folks that I am close to's problems as if they were my own. I don't know why I do it but I do. I really care about people that probably don't even know me. ( Isn't that weird")? I just hate to hear the struggles you are having to work through and believe it or not it makes me realize how thankful I really am for this life that I have not always wanted. I understand about being beaten down both emotionally and financially. I guess the only thing this old hippie could say to you or anyone is believe in yourself. You are worthwhile to anyone. You have something to add to this world. And with you reaching out to try to get help speaks volumes to me that you are trying which I have heard is half of the struggle. I sort of got sick after making 300K a year for a good many years and was too stubborn to accept disability. I kept thinking I would get better. Still, I believed in my abilities enough to know that I would make it. Well, for a few years now I haven't and my wife has carried some of the load. I can't explain the guilt that goes with that. She was use to going on expensive vacations and having what she wanted and now that is not the case. I am very ashamed of that and each day find it harder to force a smile about what has happened. And I have tried so hard with this 22 year relationship. At times I understand what you are thinking about but please don't do it. Your life will change and can do it in a days time sometimes. Just keep trying. Never let anyone manipulate you or make you feel guilty about anything. It will get better I promise.
"IRON" you read right when you read something about kidney or bladder functions being affected because of ketamine. Caiguise is the smartest in here if you want my opinion and I bet they can help you with some of that. Mary, here are those assertive rights and I hope they are of some help.
Mark
Assertive Right #1: I have the right to judge my own behavior, thoughts, and emotions and to take the responsibility for their initiation and consequence. The behavior of others may have an impact upon me, but I determine how I choose to react and/or deal with each situation. I alone have the power to judge and modify my thoughts, feelings, and behavior. Others may influence my decision, but the final choice is mine.

Assertive Right #2: I have the right to offer neither reason nor excuse to justify my behavior. I need not rely upon others to judge whether my actions are proper or correct. Others may state disagreement or disapproval, but I have the option to disregard their preferences or to work out a compromise. I may choose to respect their preferences and consequently modify my behavior. What is important is that it is my choice. Others may try to manipulate my behavior and feelings by demanding to know my reasons and by trying to persuade me that I am wrong, but I know that I am the ultimate judge.

Assertive Right #3: I have the right to judge whether I am responsible for finding solutions to others' problems. I am ultimately responsible for my own psychological well-being and happiness. I may feel concern and compassion and good will for others, but I am neither responsible for nor do I have the ability to create mental stability and happiness for others. My actions may have caused others' problems indirectly; however, it is still their responsibility to come to terms with the problems and to learn to cope on their own. If I fail to recognize this assertive right, others may choose to manipulate my thoughts and feelings by placing the blame for their problems on me.

Assertive Right #4: I have the right to change my mind. As a human being, nothing in my life is necessarily constant or rigid. My interests and needs may well change with the passage of time. The possibility of changing my mind is normal, healthy, and conducive to self growth. Others may try to manipulate my choice by asking that I admit error or by stating that I am irresponsible; it is nevertheless unnecessary for me to justify my decision.

Assertive Right #5: I have the right to say, I don't know.

Assertive Right #6: I have the right to make mistakes and be responsible for them. To make a mistake is part of the human condition. Others may try to manipulate me, having me believe that my errors are unforgivable, that I must make amends for my wrongdoing by engaging in proper behavior. If I allow this, my future behavior will be influenced by my past mistakes, and my decisions will be controlled by the opinions of others.

Assertive Right #7: I have the right to be independent of the good will of others before coping with them. It would be unrealistic for me to expect others to approve of all my actions, regardless of their merit. If I were to assume that I required others' goodwill before being able to cope with them effectively, I would leave myself open to manipulation. It is unlikely that I require the good will and/or cooperation of others in order to survive. A relationship does not require 100% agreement. It is inevitable that others will be hurt or offended by my behavior at times. I am responsible only to myself, and I can deal with periodic disapproval from others.

Assertive Right #8: I have the right to be illogical in making decisions. I sometimes employ logic as a reasoning process to assist me in making judgments. However, logic cannot predict what will happen in every situation. Logic is not much help in dealing with wants, motivations, and feelings. Logic generally deals with black or white, all or none, and yes or no issues. Logic and reasoning don't always work well when dealing with the gray areas of the human condition.

Assertive Right #9: I have the right to say, I don't understand.

Assertive Right #10: I have the right to say, I don't care.

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Does anyone know if having these treatments could possibly make your depression worse?

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FOR EVERYONE HERE...forgot to tell you IN CANADA we are doing a study called IMPACT

EXCITING STUFF....they are using a swab for DNA analysis. They feel they will be able to tell what will NOT work for you as well as generate your best possibilities and doses.....EXCITING!!!! MAY TAKE A While as it's now in the 4th year of a seven year study....SINCE I AM UNSURE OF OUTCOMES I'M STILL LOOKING TO HAVE KETAMINE.

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What size were the pieces of LDN cut into? I've been having the pills liquiquified at a compounding pharmacy. Tastes terrible. Would love to use it by just swallowing a pill. Thanks.

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Sarah -- no legitimate pharmacy will compound ketamine into any format with a prescription.

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For those of you shelling out big bucks for Ketamine, what is your long term plan. Are the doctors who are administering it for depression willing to continue to administer it long term? Or will you try it temporarily while you look for other options? It is almost a catch-22 as we've all tried all the current antidepressants out there and they won't let you into another study if you are taking Ketamine. What are you guys planning to use for the long term until there is long-term version of Ketamine that is available and affordable? If I get into a Ketamine study I'll get 1 or 2 doses max and then I have to come up with a long-term solution or give up and end it all. The one drug, Rizulole, costs $3700 a month? These prices are insane! I am feeling so hopeless. If the Ketamine makes my depression go away will it be worse than never having it all all just to have a fleeting glance at "normality"? Is anyone else trying to go to the NIH study or Columbia study? I am so depressed today I am watching "how to tie a noose" videos on You Tube - but the guilt of leaving my son and dog behind makes me hesitant. It seems like everything is so close but yet so far - and that the only real hope is attainable by the financially fortunate.

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My PCP sent me to a pain management clinic about 6 months ago for my chronic back pain (degenerative, bulging discs, stenosis, facet syndrom etc) that's been bad for about 20 years and got severe last year.
Their Dr. immediately cut my hydrocodone script in half. I was on 120 a month of the 5/325's. He said they would closely monitor my pain needs and adjust if needed.
I've had 3 RF denervements that didn't help, and just got a spinal stimulator in late December. It's not healed in place so the setups never stay right for more than a day.
I been to about 12 visits now and every time I try to tell him I'm limited to bed and in a 5-7 pain level all the time he just gets upset with how fast I go through my meds.
Did I mention I only see him for about 60 seconds during these visits?
When I forcefully told him about my pain levels he angrily told me his hands were tied by the new DHEC rules and they would pull his license if it even appeared that he was over medicating me. Then he shouted at me that HE DOESN'T HAVE TO WRITE A SCRIPT FOR 1 SINGLE PILL!
This was in the hall in front of about 5 staff members and patients.
I'm starting a complaint form but that won't solve my problem. I'm in constant pain and seen about a dozen doctors. They have prescribed dozens of non-narcotic meds, twice I've had to call an ambulance when the meds turned out to be contraindicated. Now they cut back more on the one relief I've had. As far as I'm concerned my life is over. I have no family to leave behind and no hope for the future, just pain and poverty. Oh yeah, I am in the middle of bankruptcy due to all the medical bills.
On February 9 I see "him" again and will tell him my condition again. If he treats me the same way (stand up as I'm answering his first question and start moving to the door) I will go out to the middle of the office and put a bullet through the base of my brain.
It's the only pain management option I really have left.

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@Caiguise, correct I have been on an analog, the trial has yet to be published so I cannot say the name simply due to an NDA. Hopefully the trial will be complete soon and I can talk about it. I have also done data collection and statistics for a ketamine trial, that (plus other published accounts) is where most of my statistical data comes from.

If someone was offended by my reply, they need to get over it.

You can handhold folks all you want to. It will make them feel better, it will not help them get better though by enabling bad behavior. What will help them get better is to reply to "what do we have to do to get treatment" by pointing out why doctors are refusing to treat them.

If someone shows up and demands a drug, or tells their doctor "I have tried every antidepressant" etc these are warning signs of drug seeking behavior.

EVEN IF THEY ARE TRUE.

Instead, if you want a doctor to take a risk, you need to be able to show the risk is worth while.

NO I DO NOT MEAN FINANCIALLY ONLY

Risk has many factors, if I had my license and I risk additional oversight to help patient A, how many other patients do I harm because now I cannot help them?

Ketamine is not a cure. If I had a license, I could easily farm someone from now till the analogs hit the market. $150 pharama fee to write a ketamine script? Easy money and you will come back every month to refill that script then go to a compounding pharmacy and get your $100 ketamine nasal spray. If doctors just wanted to make money that is what they could do.

INSTEAD The idea is to help as many people as best as one can. Some people (philosophers) describe this as utility, maximum benefit for the maximum number of people. It is something I personally believe in. It also means doctors have to look at a patient's history, how well documented is it? If it is not well documented a doctor has to develop that documentation. Have they tried at least 3 different families of SSRIs? No? Put them on them see if one works. That doesn't work, so you move to SNRIs as adjuncts, Maybe add L-Methylfolate. When that doesn't work maybe you switch to Emsam (an MAOI patch). Have they had their hormones checked? No? Send them to an endocrinologist. Are they a snorer? Refer them to a pulmonologist. You try the standard cures first, once everything has been documented as not working you start to look at other possibilities.

Does a patient even fit the ketamine profile? Some drugs are bad for certain conditions. Example, if the patient has ADHD and is taking medication for it, you do not generally want to put them on ketamine. I was just in a forum reading about induced schizophrenia by combining amphetamines and ketamine.

When patients jump from Dr to Dr, it resets their treatment. True, it can take a while to find a good fit so some bouncing is going to happen. I happened to find my first appointment card with my psychiatrist last week. I have been with her for 9 years next month. She will not prescribe me ketamine. Why? Because I have more experience with the trials than she does. None of my professors will prescribe me ketamine (not that I would ask them, as it is a conflict of interest). If I wanted Ketamine desperately I would have to go 250 miles to the closest doctor who uses it.

Wonder why 'used up' can't get help? Self sabotage. Lash out all you want to, but it harms you not me. Keep acting like an entitled everyone is trying to beat me down individual, and you will never find anyone to help you. Why? Because all you are doing is attacking people who try to help you. Why am I going to put my practice/license/other patients at risk to help 1 patient who is likely going to attack me, not in spite of, but because of my efforts to help them? It is simply not going to happen.

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