Ketamine For Depression? (Page 29) (Top voted first)

It was recommended by the members of a separate thread that one be started that directly relates to ketamine and it's use to treat depression.

If anyone besides myself would like to discuss it's use as a treatment for depression, feel free to post your questions, answers and experiences here.

This thread is an offshoot of a related one that discussed a treatment of Scopolamine for depression.

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The working better on women might be because most traditional antidepressants are tested mainly on men (or to use the legally approved non-sexist term, non-pregnable persons). Also women tend to get depression concurrently with anxiety and the ketamine, from my experience, helps with both.

I wanted to let you all know, since I appear to be the only person on sublingual ketamine in liquid form, that it works (although a smaller proportion is bioavailable) is far less expensive (150mg every second day is between $60and $100 dollars for a two month supply so approximately 1 year supply is the same price as 1-2 infusion treatments), and can be taken at home after the first few times. From what I've read here the duration of effectiveness is shorter, but most of my doctor's patients are taking it twice week. The catch is that, if possible you want the doctor/pharmacy to use the solution that the hospitals get, rather than have it compounded. I refilled my prescription a week and a half ago and it was seriously undereffective. Went slowly downhill for 5 days then on day six went from relatively normal mood to full depression in 2 hours. Argh that sucks. It makes you really notice the relation between depression and pain sensitivity, lack of taste in foods, changes in social behaviour, apathy, dulled thinking, sleep patterns, and all the other delightful aspects. I've had good results for over 6 months. Apparently the temperature used when making the suspension is important, and suspensions often do not completely dissolve the powder so the actual dose you take in can vary substantially. My new bottle appears to have been misprepared and underpowered. I will probably be switching to the solution the hospitals use (presumably at a lower dose). It will be more predictable, and comes at 50mg per ml, which is what the compounding pharmacy was making anyhow.

Anyway, best wishes to you all. For those of you considering trying this treatment know that the immediate wierdness wears off quickly (an hour or two), and that you may (or may not) have the depression come back suddenly if your dosage schedule is too far apart. Bear with it and let your physician figure out what works well for you.

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Thanks RK. So aspartame is "Equal", so what about sweet n low or splenda? Are they ok from a depression standpoint? And I just looked up glutamate - oatmeal and peanut butter and soy are staples of my vegan diet. Yet in giving up meat and dairy, it sounds like I already tremendously decreased my glutamate (I was a cheese fiend). I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that I'm feeling better these days. I can easily quit the aspartame. Quitting the glutamate will be quite difficult. I need to come up with some alternatives to my top 3 foods - and I just added soy protein to my diet to make sure I'm taking in enough protein! I see my doc next week; I'll ask about the naltrexone. I wanted to talk to him about slowly trying to get off the lamictal, and if I'm still ok, then slowly getting off the emsam. I can't sleep without the klonopin,so that would be the last thing to try to stop. It would be a huge victory if I could. I've been on meds for at least 20 years

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@stillhopefull Right Aspartame is Equal and NutraSweet.

Splenda, Stevia, sacharine, sucralose etc do not become glutamate so under the glutamate model they pose no problems. Not to say that every sweetener doesn't have some drawback, but we are just talking about one model of depression.

Your body will always produce its own supply of glutamate, it is a non-essential amino acid after all, but IF you are one of the many with an over production/intake of it then any area you can cut back in will help. If you are not, well that just means you do not fit the glutamate model.

I do not want to shill products here, but let me also encourage you to try Magnesium Taurate. You can get a months supply for $40 or so and for those it helps, it works tremendously well.

Remember almost all the models simply function as stand-ins for deeper processes. To the best of my knowledge, it is entirely possible to fit more than one model so if you get some relief, don't be afraid to keep trying others till you are back to normal, or at least as good as you can be.

Maybe one day we will be able to instantly diagnose and correct depression and anxiety, we can all still be hopefull ;)

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RK, just curious. where do you get your mag taur? I see 400mg mostly and then a whopping 2500 mg from vitacost...but many of the 400s include other types of mag as well

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@stillhopefull

I have it because we are creating a drink based on it to fund Muscadine, so I literally buy it in 25kg lots.

As I said, I don't want to shill, but if you were to add {edited for privacy}

I already feel a bit to close to violating rule 4: (4) We do not allow our forums to be used for buying, selling, or for the promotion of a product or service.

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RK, stillhopeful & Cai....Thanks for the info. There is an inflammatory component in my lifelong battle w/ depression. I suffer painful joints, knees, back, hands & feet. My right shoulder, arm & hand are a daily source of misery as is my back.

Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue and MS have been mentioned for 35 years but only one or 2 ANA tests have ever been positive. Having trouble getting my newest MD to take me seriously because I look healthy, have low BP & appear to be 20 yrs younger than my age in his opinion.

I do Lose my balance often & have suffered many fractures from 2 serious falls over the years.

BTW...I have osteoporosis which is severe in my hips, 3.9 last Dexa scan & somewhere in the high two's for my spine. Don't know if that figures in.

No way my dr would Rx ketamine (nasal or oral) or LDN. So I looked online & ordered LDN two days ago myself by phone. Then receied an email saying it did not go through??? Due to holiday can't attempt re-order 'til Tues. If order goes through it will take several wks to arrive so won't know effect right away but will post here either way.

I take alot of Mag but can't find Mag Taur listed on containers. SUPER MAG INSTANT has Mag Gluconate, mag aspartarte, mag carbonate & mag citrate. \DOCTORS BEST brand is 100% Chelated mag glycinate/lysinate caplets.
Also have mag oxide....however if I understand correctly these are NOT the right kind???? Please advise as I am in brain fog.

All guidence will be very appreciated. I'm new to computers as well & online only to get depression info. The stress of finding & ordering Naltrexone online to try based on your kind advice left me excited when my order went through....then discouraged/exhausted/confused when they cancelled it!!!

Don't eat meat but do eat plain nonfat greek yogurt daily and foil packaged salmon several times per week for brain health. I drink Isopure Protein Powder daily as well. Lots of Brain Supps like Cognitex & vitamins for years but nothing helps.

No benefit from TCA's, SSRI's/SNRI's, MAO's over 40 years. I do suffer Terrible insomnia as well as the treatment refactory major depression.

Trying to save my life...Regards; mayday

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I know this thread is for ketamine and I will get to that later in the post, but there are at least three treatments (aside from ECT) you have not tried yet.

There are promising results for magnetic seizure therapy, as an alternative to electroconvulsive but without risk of memory loss or personality changes. I have not tried that personally, and you would need to join a trial which means a multiweek commitment to going in regularly for treatments. It also would most likely mean no cost to the treatments.

There is tDCS, which basically runs a minute current through two points on your scalp. If you are doing this at home it is essential to carefully calculate where to apply the pads. Basically it stimulates one area and de-stimulates another. So for depression with anxiety you are stimulating one area above the edge of your left eye and another closer to the center on the right side. I don't know which clinics do this. I found it had some good effects, but insufficient at safe levels. The research on it seems to show some efficacy but there are hardly any decent studies out there.

There is also rTMS in various modalities. I was in a study where they did both left and right side (basically a focused electro magnet system that produced a tiny microcurrent at a very focused point in the brain). It worked wonderfully on me and after the initial four weeks I went in once a week for a year and had an entire year without anxiety or depression. OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) covered it under compassionate care, then decided compassion only lasts nine months. After half a year of hell I got into another rTMS study which used a different pattern and focal point. They seemed to be having good results for the study population as a whole, and it brought the treatment time down from 45 min to 6 min, which is important if you are trying to get your government to cover it. But it did not work on me. We tried another focal point and again nothing. That is when the doctor tried me on ketamine.

There has been coverage of ketamine use in depression in the major newspapers in Canada and England recently, so you might want to print out the articles, search medline on the web and print out the abstracts, and take those to your physician. Give him medical studies on both the efficacy of the drug and the risks (what happens when people abuse the drug). The second should show him that the levels used in addicts are far higher and more frequent. Yes there are people who abuse the drug, but if it works for depression you will know. Ask him/her to simply let you try a single dose to see if it might work. Even if the dose needs to be adjusted you should know within 48 hours if it is going to have a beneficial effect. In my case the doctor could tell it was working within an hour, and before I left the office I felt better (able to look people in the eyes, felt calmer, hopeful). We needed to adjust the dose and frequency later, but the likelihood of it working your doctor will probably be able to see immediately. Tell him you are willing to take it in his/her waiting room (bring a sleep mask and earplugs or earphones with ambient music because you want to reduce stimulation during the first 1-2 hours when you go through the weirdness). This may be a drug of abuse but it is used as an anesthetic on children because it does not depress breathing. And if it does help your depression you put up with the initial hour of weirdness because once it passes you feel more normal (and people without depression sometimes fail to understand that feeling normal is marvelous). Unless you are prone to addiction these two simple facts should stop you from abusing the medicine. First, your brain needs time to rest between doses; if you took it every day it would not be effective. Second, if you crank up the dose your body would probably adapt, and then it would not be effective at a safe dose. So if you don't want to get depressed again, stick to the regimen your doctor advises.

Also if you come there armed with peer reviewed journal articles from respectable medical journals the physician will not only know his colleagues take this seriously, but that you know what you are asking of her/him.

Finally, and don't take this the wrong way, but be careful with megadosing in your diet and veering too far from the norms (whether vegetarian or not). Chemicals are chemicals. Just because they don't come in prescription bottles does not mean it is harmless. It does, however, mean there may not be sufficient information on appropriate dosage and interactions.

Best wishes. May you achieve 'normal' soon, and don't give up hope.

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Cai....I would really apprecate hearing more re/ the oral ketamine that is working so well for you. Hope you got the potency problem you experienced w/ a recent refill worked out. Is sub-lingual ketamine therapy a rare or common Rx from your Dr? I ask b/c you are the only person I have read about that is taking it.

Is it to treat mainly depression, pain or a combination of both? What type specialist should I be trying to locate to try this? You make an excellent point re/ the cost as well. Infusion is unaffordable on a monthly or twice a month basis even if able to obtain it! Wonder WHY oral ketamine is not used more often to at least provide partial relief of major depression?

mayday

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MaydayMaydayMayday,

Like many of us You have multiple co-morbidities. It is of course important to take them into account when seeking treatment from your doctor. Anything more than 2.5 SD is classified as "Severe and established Osteoporosis" Our (muscadine's) general rule is that you should always be under the care of a doctor who is at the least aware of the medications you are taking and we strongly recommend that you have a prescription on file for anything not over the counter you are taking.

As for the Magnesium, avoid the Super Mag Instant as it contains Aspartate and Gluconate, two non essential amino acids that are frequently already present in excess in people with depression and can cause depression themselves. Carbonate and Citrate are fine, we prefer Taurate but it is a preference not a requirement. Magnesium Oxide is worthless unless you are making bricks.

Let me divert for a minute and explain something about Magnesium doses because there can easily be some confusion.

When we recommend 500mg of Magnesium we mean 500mg of Magnesium itself, not the compounded substance so take Magnesium Taurate for example just because I am most familiar with it. Magnesium Taurate (like any compound) can have a variable concentration of something (Magnesium in this case). Our most recent shipment is 8.45% Magnesium, but it can be anywhere from 7.4% to 9.2% so you have to figure out how much magnesium in in a gram of the compound. 1gm of 7.4% Magnesium Taurate is going to contain 74mg of Magnesium so if you are trying to take 500mg you need 500/74 Grams or 6.76 grams of Magnesium Taurate. If you happen to have 9.2% Magnesium then each gram contains 92 gm of Magnesium and you would take 500/92 Grams or 5.43 grams of Magnesium Taurate.

Short answer always take the % magnesium listed on the container, multiple it by 10 and divide that number into the dosage of magnesium you want to take. We do that as we package the stuff, but as long as you have a good scale you can do it yourself.

Also, we recommend that you take magnesium as a drink, powder (made into a drink) or in capsule form. This is simply because magnesium needs water with it for your body to absorb it and it needs enough water for the dose you took. 250mg of magnesium needs at least 8oz of water with it a bit more if it is a capsule. What you do not want is a mass of magnesium compound in concentrated form in your system as it will draw water out of your intestines and cause it to have laxative type properties.

If you are taking calcium and it is causing constipation, consider increasing the magnesium until it has laxative type properties. One of the Beta testers for our stuff is reporting that when she went to 1000MG a day of magnesium (the absolute top limit to what we would recommend) she was able to come off of her stool softeners that she was on because of the calcium she takes for her Osteoporosis.

Continuing with the magnesium side of things Magnesium is like many other things you may take where it interacts with calcium and iron. You want to make certain you take any magnesium at LEAST 1/2 hour before you take anything with Calcium or Iron and I suspect you already have been told to not take Calcium and Iron together as well, if not then let me suggest you do not, they should all be at least 1/2 hour apart from each other.

On to Naltrexone, it is as you know a controlled substance, ironically it has no abuse potential itself (it is mostly used to prevent abuse) but it is manufactured from opiates and so it is in that same classification. While it is possible to find it on the internet w/o a prescription, it is also possible to get ripped off or to get something else entirely and even if you do successfully order it you may get a "love letter" from the DEA and have it seized at the border. The best way to avoid all of that is to find a doctor who will work with you and prescribe the stuff, it is cheap and plentiful at any pharmacy. Should that fail to work, consider going to an addiction counseling service in your city/ county and asking for it. Explain why you want it and they may assist. Addiction counseling services routinely prescribe the stuff because it is used to treat alcohol and opiate addiction.

At the very least please make certain your pharmacist is aware of every medication you are taking, they can be your last line of defense for drug interactions, but again we would hope that you would have a good doctor with whom you can work with, if not consider finding a new doctor.

RKBrumbelow
The Muscadine Foundation

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maydaymaydaymayday,

I don't know who told you that ketamine is less likely to work with age but they are absolutely incorrect. There is a well documented study of ketamine being used in a hospice environment where depression was obviously peaking. The effects of the ketamine were the same 70-75% that they have been in almost every other study.
I would be happy to provide you more info and some well experienced guidance. I only thank G-d for the huge difference ketamine has made in my life after 29 years.

Rick

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I have a much larger reply coming that is in moderation. I swear it bases moderation based on length some times.

oral Ketamine is not used in clinical situations for 2 really good reasons:

1) There are few clinical trials that have used it (if any) so there is little support on the evidence side that it works. Note I am not saying it doesn't just that the supporting evidence is missing.

2) The Bioavailability problem. The bioavailability of oral ketamine is very wide across the population and so does not allow the fine tuning of the dosage. Of the 4 methods of ingesting Ketamine, (IV, IM, Nasal, Oral) Oral is the most variable and least bioavailable. Nasal is what is going to be used in emergency room situations and likely IV for clinical situations until GLYX-13 or another analog makes it through trials.

So doctors have to prescribe more ketamine for the same effect and there is less evidence of the usefulness and that is why you see it much less frequently.

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First YAY! #484 made it out of moderation ...

Next:
Cai,
Next time you see your doctor could you ask him if there is currently a protocol they are following? I would love to add it to the other protocols we have on file.

I know that oral ketamine for children exists as a syrup, any compounding pharmacy should be able to get access to it. That would allow your doctor to fine tune things more.

As far as really fine tuning things that becomes very difficult with oral ketamine because it takes a bunch of blood tests to know just how bioavailable it is in a particular patient and how fast hey absorb it. One of the big benefits of nasal is that the bioavailability is well known, not because of FDA backed tests but because of battlefield and military testing since nasal ketamine has been used in our military since Vietnam.

It is interesting that in Canada you have better access to rTMS than we do here in the States. Most places to get into an rTMS or iTMS trial you have to have already failed ECT. ECT is still considered the gold standard treatment, despite the side effects though SNRIs and SSRIs are going to replace it in the next few years I expect.

One of the things Muscadine is really trying to push is the understanding of the different forms of depression and their symptoms/ causes. If we can get doctors away from the one size fits all responses we think we can help a lot more people get back to leading full and productive lives. So I think you for mentioning it.

It bears repeating that there are at LEAST 8 different major causes of depression we know about today, and different treatments work differently on each of the 8 different models. Even the models are very large though in most cases.

Example the Nutrition model. The nutrition model rally covers 3 different sub forms of depression but since most are treatable by Deplin (A Medical food) they get lumped together.

Or Hormonal. Yes one of the models is simply generically labeled Hormonal, but which Hormone. In men for example low testosterone can cause all of the symptoms of major depression, Low Thyroid can affect anyone and can mimic depression. Women can suffer from depression because of low estrogen. A pituitary tumor can cause depression by creating an adenoma (a hormone secreting tumor) or someone could have an adrenal tumor that would cause depression and anxiety. Yet, they all are listed as "Hormonal" and there are 8 of these models.

What we have to balance as patients and advocates is what is covered by insurance, what can be tested for, what is the over all cost, and what is available for treatment. Take into account al the patient variables and it can seem overwhelming.

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I do not take nor am I prescribed ANY meds other than once per week Fosamax for osteoporosis. I do not have any addiction, recreational drug or alcohol issues and never have!

DAILY Ice packs & rarely an occasional asprin are my only vices.

The International Pharmacy I placed my order w/ for LDN is well known and a 'real pharmacy' whose name you would recognize. Unfortunately they emailed me that they are out of stock now & unsure when /if they will carry LDN in the future. So that is a dead end for me.

I had a Dr's appt today and mentioned LDN and my Dr said he'd never heard of using LDN for depression. Suggested excersize & Aleve for shoulder/arm pain.

BTW...I would never order random unbranded meds from an unknown source...much less take any additional med along w/ Rx'd meds w/o asking my MD. As I stated in my post I gave up on ALL anti-depressant meds well over 2 years ago after MORE THAN 40 YEARS of obediantly trying them under various MD's care b/c they NEVER, EVER WORKED!

THEY DID CAUSE MANY undesirable S/E's however!

The days of me enriching Dr's & big Pharma "just b/c" are OVER!

In my post I was open and honest re/ my depression only to have you guys respond as if I am a criminal. Am I missing something here? Why assume one who is suffering TRD is also irresponsible and careless???

Many mature, responsible law abiding sufferers are very tired of being lumped into the same category as those who chronically abuse drugs & alcohol, drive under the influence; commit domestic violence etc.......Makes it difficult for all to receive help & meds they need.

Thirty years from now if you are still suffering agonizing pain made so much worse by the ravages of age I pray you are better received.

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@MaydayMaydayMayday

I think you misunderstood me. I never meant to suggest that you were addicted. What I am saying is that Naltrexone is used to treat addiction at full strength, and typically doctors will only prescribe medications they are familiar with. Since addiction doctors are very familiar with Naltrexone they are much more likely to prescribe it because they know it has no addiction potential and it is used to treat addiction.

I personally order many of my medications from overseas and know people that travel overseas to get their medications, but there are a LOT of scammers out there and you are not the only one who reads these replies. Even though I get many of my medications from overseas, I do have prescriptions for all of them.

When you order prescription medication w/o a prescription you take a large risk. That you are willing to assume that risk on yourself is your choice, I can not, and will not ever suggest to someone in a public forum that they should do so however. I will always suggest that patients work with their doctors and follow the laws of the land.

My goals are twofold representing Muscadine:
1) Educate patients and doctors about causes and treatments of refractory conditions, current research because we believe that the educated patient working with an educated doctor is the best possible combination AND
2) When we get 501c3 status to actually fund patients treatments so that they can return to healthy productive lives we will do that by matching them with a doctor who is willing to follow the protocols and maintain treatments.

If you go back and read what I actually said you will find your negative response is highly unwarranted. No one has attacked you, I think we have all been supportive and have tried to give you constructive advice as to how to find a doctor that will treat you and how to legally obtain the medication you may need.

There is a spanish proverb that reads "Take what you want, God said to man, and pay for it."

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Here is what I know about the protocol they use. Patients start at approximately 1mg/kg of weight. You take it in a room in the office, in a lazy-boy chair, with a bit of water. The lights are dim and they suggest you listen to quiet ambient music. I get bored easily and like to know more, so I had ambient music on my tablet and was playing sudoku. I found it very strange that the first effect I noticed was that my sudoku skill and speed increased for a short period as I started perceiving the puzzle as a gestalt. The doctor came in after half an hour and just talked to me for a little bit, I think he was checking for odd reactions and ability to focus/communicate. He did the same thing after the hour mark. They expected me to wait 1.5-2 hours before going home, and you were expected to bring someone with you to get yourself home.

The dose schedule was twice a week, so I took the next dose at home, then the following time I was in the office and we repeated the procedure at either 1.3 or 1.5 mg/kg. From what I understand the protocol after that point differs by patient. Many find complete remission of symptoms at that dose and frequency, but he said it was common for patients to find that after about a month they needed it bumped up slightly, but then not to need changed afterwards. He said there were also patients who took higher dosages. I kept track of how I felt each day, so I started being aware of how many days it was before things started wearing off, and what were the early signs. I found that at the beginning of my menstrual cycle I was fine with 3 or occasionally 4 days between doses, but at the end of the cycle it was 2 days. We ended up with me simply taking 3ml every second day, which is 2mg/kg. He says I don't need to, but I hold it under my tongue and against my cheeks for 10 min before swallowing.

From what I've discerned, the only difference with the oral tablets is that you can only take dosages that are in 25 or 50mg increments.

I understand your point about bioavailability varying by patient, and the need for blood level diagnostics, but it works well to judge by the effects. If you are honest with your doctor, you should be able to find the lowest possible dose that provides good results. Some people may need a dosage that is higher or lower than others, not because it gives the same blood level, but because a different blood level is therapeutically required. I've been on other antidepressants, in combination, where the dosage was lower than the therapeutic dose, but it worked. So blood levels, I think, are more useful for diagnostics if you are getting too high a dose to be safe.

We don't really have more access to rTMS in this part of Canada (I heard rumours one of the prairie provinces was planning to cover it), but I live near Toronto where CAMH (Centres for Addiction and Mental Health) is headquartered. A friend was one of the earliest rTMS patients and at her suggestion I looked at the CAMH and university med school sites for a study needing volunteers. Outside studies it is available only through MindCare, a for-profit chain that charges over $250 per treatment. So effectively it is not available unless you have a very high income or have gone through the initial round of treatments on a study and are one of the luckly people who only need a touch-up once a month.

As to ECT and rTMS, I agree that in the research ECT is still the gold standard. I have resorted to ECT once, and it worked. This did not make it impossible to get in the study. I received 6 ECT treatments (the doctor said that was the minimum for it to have a lasting effect), I felt fine after the first one, and after the second, and after that I have no memory for the next few months. ECT has a higher cure rate than anything else out there (although I look forward to the research on MST) but most people I know would never go through the treatment because there is not only a risk of memory loss, there is a risk of personality change. To me, myself, me sense of self is part of that personality and I am not suicidal, even if that death of personality might cure my body of depression for a time.

I don't see ECT going anywhere, because when someone is an active suicide risk it is the only thing that produces a quick response. Frankly, I think the biggest challenges to its hegemony as the gold standard are magnetic seizure therapy for efficacy and ketamine, because it can be given in the emergency room to people who are actively suicidal and there is a significant chance that it will reduce/remove the problem. Or in emerg terms, it will stabilize their condition sufficiently for them to be moved out of emerg and into the regular system.

FYI- I am currently in limbo as to whether I will be taking the nasal or oral ketamine in the future. Surprisingly the compounded liquid costs about 1/4 to 1/6 the cost for the pre-made liquid. I left the office today expecting to start on nasal, then got the sticker shock and am currently sorting things out with a different compounding pharmacy from the one I have previously used. For those who have not read further down this chain, I've been on oral/sublingual ketamine for over six months with very good results, but the last bottle from the compounding pharmacy seems to lack potency. The new pharmacy and my doctor are sorting things out, but my mood is plummeting and I really am not sure if they are compounding it for oral or nasal use. I am really looking forward to hearing from them, so I can take the dose I should have taken this morning, and hopefully by the end of the weekend switch to a batch that lasts more than a day and a half, and does not give me headaches.

Anyhow, best wishes to you all, and if you need different info about the protocol, let me know.

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Dear Rick....The only positive reception I have received from the many Infusion Clinics/Dr's I have contacted was from a truly compassionate MD (Eastern USA) who was kind enough to speak to me via phone.

He said after you crunch the numbers there is a % difference in positive response between females & males, length of depression and age.

Generally speaking for prediction purposes only.... in his experience "the ideal patient is age 25 & female".

He goes on to say that it's only a statistic and that there are many, many exceptions in his own practice. His success rate is about 70%. This Doctor does not want to give misleading hope to desperate people.

Many of his pts travel to his clinic and incur great expence in doing so. I appreciate his candor. The positive outcome of 70 % is disappointing (some clinics claimed 90% success???), but it's understandable as depression does cause brain damage over time and brain plasticity does lessen w/ age.

I still going to try Ketamine Infusion. Would be blessed to live nearby this Dr in the East. My West USA contacts from Ketamine Advocacy have all been very negative (as in "not taking new pts", no call back in 2 weeks, "Our clinic is not open yet", etc;).

CATCH 22...If Ketamine works for me I'll move, of course, but job is here....... No paycheck = No Ketamine.But first have to try it....

RICK...I am so happy you are doing well w/ Ketamine. Did you respond w/ first Infusion? Don't know if it is proper to ask or mention Dr's names here but I do wonder who you go to and how long the treatments releive your depression before you go in for another?

Please share more about your success. I am failing and don't know how much longer I can hang on. My body pains are nothing compared to the pain of depression which is incapcitating.

All the Best to you Rick....mayday

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Hi. I read your post and I am also thinking of giving the Fisher Wallace device a try. I am also a non meat eater for the same reasons you are going on 3 years now. I would say it initially helped boast my energy and mood, but still not enough to keep me afloat of all the stress that has piled up since.

I've also been using SAM-e as a mood boaster because I've tried some other prescription anti depressants in the past and I didnt fair well with the side effects (Im also not a big fan of taking any sort of pills ever since a round of anti biotics 4 years ago has caused systematic problems including severe acid reflux which I now have to have checked annually for cancer prevention).

My question for you is, when you used your HSA to pay for the fisher wallace device, did you have a prescription to purchase it? I have an HSA as well, and I am worried with all the stipulations for things not covered, if i would have a problem purchasing this without an Rx and being charged an extra 20% because of this.

Any information would be helpful. Thanks!

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guessguy9: If you go on the website, they tell you that you can either get an rx from your own doctor, or you can pay $50 to get one from a doc affiliated with the product. I emailed or called her (I forget which), paid the $50 and she sent me the rx...sent it to my FSA and they accepted it, no questions asked. Then FW had a sale on the sponges that you use in the device,so i bought them and submitted that bill to my FSA (without showing the rx again), and they approved that as well! For once, no headaches with medical bills!

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Awesome! Thanks so much for the reply. I ended up asking them personally and they said it shouldn't be a problem using the HSA card as an eligible purchase for the stimulator. I went the same route and paid the $50 for the rx which Fisher Wallace reimbursed which was pretty sweet. They also mentioned they will, as of next week, will no longer charge a 10% restocking fee if returned within 60 days which is even more awesome. Though, I really hope that this works and I do not have to send it back. Thanks again!

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guessguy9: let me know if you think it's helping you or not. Supposedly it helps with depression, anxiety, and insomnia (and I have all 3), but I'm still not sure if it's really doing anything for me or if it's the other changes I've made (well, diet mostly) that are working. Best of luck to you as you try it! BTW, I see "flashing lights" with my eyes closed when I put it on, and sometimes it stings...but when it stings, I find that if I just reposition it a bit, it stops...or if I just let it be, in a few seconds, it seems more tolerable and I forget all about it. It's an interesting device, an interesting concept...but I would like to hear firsthand what someone else thinks, so please post after a while and give an update.

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