Ketamine For Depression? (Page 7) (Top voted first)

It was recommended by the members of a separate thread that one be started that directly relates to ketamine and it's use to treat depression.

If anyone besides myself would like to discuss it's use as a treatment for depression, feel free to post your questions, answers and experiences here.

This thread is an offshoot of a related one that discussed a treatment of Scopolamine for depression.

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REPORT

You know the laws in my state as well as being a "dr in training". Well I'm an astronaut in training. So I know more than you. Also I'm ex special forces and future CEO of Goldman Sachs. Now that that's settled, having been fired and told to my face that it was that they can't have someone with a bad back on crew because I'm too high of a liability. I brought this to several lawyers, the workers relations board, the sate's AG, all said the same thing. Only Race, religion, gender, and age protect me from being fired or not hired in a "right to work state". Some told me it also means "right to fire state". I appreciate the unsolicited legal advice from a "MD in training ". However,
I broke my back when I was 9 and told by an MD that "kids don't get bad backs, it's a pulled muscle. Give him so Tylenol. "I have never stopped hurting since. My left leg stopped growing so I have a thin, twisted leg. I hide it so I can get jobs because if I don't, I don't get hired, no matter the job. All around me ran away from me.

My dad kicked me out on the street because I wouldn't "pick myself up and get back to work and school". I lived on the street in my '81 Civic. Never got support for my loss. No one cared because they only care about themselves. Parents, bosses, owners, investors, and "MD's in training". I've been reading your posts. They are what I call "public masturbation". I've lived it. Not been a tech in a study. Not a clerk in a trial. I've lived it. I've been treated by people of your level. You really just shotgun treatment, using the drug that gives the best rewards for each script written. I've been on EVERY antidepressant, EST, hypnotherapy, acupuncture, and poisoned numerous times.
Experienced multiple seizures from drug interactions. Oopsie. Not our fault.

Everyone told me I was the one responsible for getting two drugs SPECIFICALLY warned not to be prescribed together. Dr, pharmacist, insurance company, none have liability. I must read the tiny foldout warning paper that folds out to 2' x 3' with nothing but legal and medical language. In 4 point font. Oh, the pharmacy didn't provide that? Oopsie. Not their fault. I should have requested it. You don't even belong in a surgical suite. You shouldn't be allowed within a mile of any medical facility. You, young man, belong in a ditch with a hand trowel (a shovel would be dangerous for you and those around you).

You speak big words regarding pharmaceuticals, but one word is never used, "care". Care for those suffering. You have zero interest in the care of humans. Go back to your lab and create another designer drug, stay away from a forum based on supporting each other as they navigate through hell. I was put on Ketamine for a short period. Wow. No side effects, hopeful, and engaged in self improvement.
As soon as the doctor got that feedback I was taken off Ketamine treatment and prescribed Lexapro. The drug that gave me seizures. To hell with all "drs". You WANT us sick and suffering. If we get better your profit disappears. NEGLIGENCE. I hope I survive long enough to sue you into homelessness. Live my life. Watch the love of your life get murdered. Then come back here with your arrogance.

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MdinTraining,

So are you saying that you have not personally been prescribed ketamine? I know some major pharma companies are working on analogs, but thought the results so far were no better than ketamine (they hadn't managed to keep the efficacy and reduce side effects). If you are willing and able to talk about the analog and the trial you did data analysis, I'd love to learn more.

I think it is fair to say that anything written on a bulletin board, like this, is an open letter and therefore although your answer might not be intended for a certain person it can still be offensive. You may not have written to her, but you posted something openly which offended.

So please, can we all take a deep breath, forgive any past problems, and work together in trying to share information and experience in a supportive manner?

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@HY1V5X , I have said here before that the problem is not to buy ketamine. In Uruguay the sale is legal. In Brazil one can buy with a prescription. My wife is a doctor. The problem here in Brazil (or in Uruguay) is properly administering the ketamine as a form of treatment. No hospital or clinic accepts or makes the infusion of ketamine. This is the problem!

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There are many psychiatrists who prescribe ketamine, or will do so if asked. I brought up the subject with my long time psychiatrist. They researched and wrote me the prescription.

The "KAN" tends to list facilities with higher prices, although there is often ample room for negotiation. Make sure you are getting doctor-client care through the entire infusion regime. It often takes 6-12 infusions to achieve several weeks of improvement.

Nasal spray ketamine can be filled by compounding pharmacies. Talk with hospice professional's to find out which have the best pricing. The intranasal spray is nice in that you can administer it in the comfort of your own home and it is only a tiny fraction of the cost of infusions.

The nasal works very rapidly, even faster than infusions, and you are in complete control of the dose. Not everyone enjoys the trippy/spacey roller coaster ride that often accompanies the infusions. Many psychiatrists believe that the strong "trip" from infusions in not a necessary component of the treatment benefit.

Maybe try both and see what works best for you. That's what I did and I'm sold on the intranasal spray ketamine for now.

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@stella,

"I could understand how you might think that intranasal ketamine is not faster than IV ketamine."

IN ketamine will never be faster than IV for the following reason: IN ketamine must pass the mucous membrane and enter the blood stream, where IV Ketamine starts off in the blood stream. IN ketamine then enters the blood stream and begins action.

Therefore IN Ketamine will never be faster acting than IV.

I have looked at journals.cambridge.org/action/9533708&fileId=S1092852914000686 and I know what it says, but since that study has been done metabolic studies have shown that IN and IV share the same metabolic pathways so we know the mechanism of action is the same. As a result again you have one method of insertion that has a mechanical barrier in the mucous membranes and one that has none. it is the equivalent of saying that people eat a sandwich faster if it comes in a plastic package that has to be removed as opposed to being put in their hands.

As to my statement being baseless, No your statement was simply wrong and so I corrected it. It still is wrong, but I see how you misunderstood things.

@Chimpshow,

Several have higher site affinities example: 4-hydroxy-2-quinolones as to the rest There are at least 3 methods of action that Ketamine has demonstrated It acts as an antagonist (as you mention and has been mentioned before), deals with Glia inflammation and has an affect on monamines.

@rain,

It is nice you worked for the FBI all those years. Could you please cite, using your FBI training possibly, where I said or even implied that you were a drug addict? I do recall saying that several people were acting in manners that doctors would see them as drug seeking. I pointed it out, as I have already stated repeatedly, so that they can change their behavior to match what a doctor expects and so be able to get treatment as opposed to working against their best interests and continuing to behave like a drug seeker. I respond to these forums the way I do because people put out so much false information. For example IN ketamine acting faster than IV (see above). I also try and give people real and valuable information on ketamine and its effects and methods of operation.

Feel free of course to be upset at me, That is fine, you should however get my gender at least correct, and note that I have both been a recipient and a trial statistician for ketamine/an analogue.

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That is very true. I went to see Dr. Glen Brooks who originally charges $550 but gave us a break for $350.00. He only did two infusions because he said he thinks I have Lyme also and sent me to a Dr. Daniel Brooks who charged $850.00 to tell me I did have Lyme without blood tests. My primary care researched this Dr. Brooks and found him to be a scam artist. Waiting for the results to see whaTs what. The infusion lasted 6 days until someone upset me pretty bad. It probably would of lasted longer if that had not happened. Also found out that my insurance doesn't cover ketamine nasal spray and the on it does thatS in the same family is profosol. Hope I spelled that right. It just kills me that there's a medicine that made me stop thinking about killing myself and I can't afford it. My parents were helping until they found out we were conned.

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I'm a zchronic pain patient. Up until a few weeks ago I didn't know that there are Dr s who will infuse ketamine for pain. It helped this person tremendously!!

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I have not posted here for nearly one year but I can see how this subject matter has really taken off. I have been receiving Ketamine treatments for over a year. Although my official diagnosis is BP. I have never experienced anything except depression for a 30 year period. There is no way using any form or medium that I can convey the level of suffering.

Thank G-d, around a year ago I merited to begin ketamine treatments, first in California and then ultimately in chicago to avoid the long travels. This has changed my existence. I initially received IM from a Dr. in CA and then I wanted to continue with IM but the DOC in Deerfield recommended his protocol. At first I was skeptical. I can honestly say there is no comparison between an IM shot and the IV coupled with TMS.

I continue to the following regimen in addition to a boatload of Rx that I need: I receive ketamine in Illinois about once per month and on the weeks in between I self admin with an IM just to keep me progressing.

There is no question in my mind that Ketamine treatments have been the single most powerful response that I have had to my disease. Rx, whether AD, mood stabilizers, or atypicals AntiPsch's compared to ketamine is like comparing a third string high school group of players to the all stars in the pros.

I wish the rest of the psych world would hear that message and really start to push for greater adaptation to ketamine in the mainstream. It's kind of sad that it is all about money. It just demonstrates that we don't have the ability to rise above our own selfish needs.

Thanks

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Mark,

Sorry for the delay in responding. Discovered one downside to taking ketamine as a liquid. My husband bumped into me when I was taking it and spilled most of the dose, so the last few days have been unpleasant (we are on vacation and if I retook the dose I would run out before getting home). Ketamine works better for me than any other drug I've been prescribed, but how long it remains effective varies (I think hormone based), so it tends to be a bit of a roller coaster. Like KETMIDWEST rTMS therapy is the treatment that works best for me. Getting access to it, and in the format that is effective is the problem.

I am quite lucky in having a support system. My husband and kids are supportive, and the fact that they wouldn't manage to cope without me (that milk replenishes itself in the fridge is still a mystery to them) makes suicide not an option. I was extremely lucky to have a family friend with connections, so I was able to see an excellent psychiatrist who is good at both chemical and talk therapy, and when I went to the states for grad school I was able to learn more coping skills with group therapy and some cognitive-behavioral therapy. But I think the biggest thing is that I am pig-headed and won't give up. I've learned that when I'm depressed I need to ask myself 'what would real-Cai do?' and in general try really hard not to be passive.

My knowledge of psychiatric meds comes from too many years experience being prescribed things that didn't work, and being a researcher who does not automatically defer to doctors, so I read up on everything. Actually, my dissertation in the History of Technology and Science was about the development and reception of Valium, an anti-anxiety drug. I tend to be very open about my depression/anxiety because I decided that it wasn't anything to be embarrassed about, and because I was teaching I thought it important for students to know ahead of time that I might change during the term. It ended up being useful to my students, because those going through depression for the first time felt safe coming and talking to me.

As for your question about the least expensive form, from what I've seen on the board compounded capsules seem to be the least costly. Someone recently posted that he was using intramuscular inj's, which is probably even cheaper, but I suspect most doctors would associate inj's. with abuse and/or not trust patents to get the dose correct. Talk to your doctor, be honest, and maybe bring him the posting about the protocol used in Toronto. It sounds as if your physician understands that patients have financial limitations. If you can get off the roller-coaster of normal to depressed it should make it easier to get back to a regular life (work/relationships/hobbies).

I hope this helps.

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Mary,

So glad to hear things are going better. Even if there are down periods in the future, you know that there will also be times when you get back to normal, and that is good. I really hope this treatment proves fully effective, financially viable, and continues to work. The torches/lozenges sound like a great idea, a less expensive route but allowing you to absorb under the tongue or in the cheek.

As for me, I've been discovering the difference between thyroid-related depression symptoms and regular depression ones. My thyroid is on the fritz, so when I take my ketamine some of the symptoms go away, then gradually they return. I started rTMS treatment this week (in the past it has been the only thing more effective than ketamine, and with no side effects). I see an endocrinologist in a week, and hopefully she will get the thyroid/adrenal/pituitary angle solved.

I hope you are able to enjoy the summer, feeling comfortable enough in your skin to go outside and be around people. I always find the grass looks greener when I come out of depression, and I wonder if people who never suffer depression can appreciate those little things the same way.

Best Wishes,
Cai

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I've been following this thread for quite some time but haven't posted. I'm happy that caiguise, Mary and Mark are doing well. I pray that you all continue to receive the benefit of Ketamine. I'm a TRD sufferer like you all and am exploring Ketamine as an option having tried a host of antidepressants, ECT and rTMS. I'd like to stay in touch with you all. My e-mail address is {edited for privacy}. Best wishes for a bright depression-free future, Taz.

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Thank you Iron for your good wishes. I will contact the site to share my email with you. Please do look into the ketamine treatments. This past Monday I received a 4 hour treatment from Dr. Brooks in NYC and again my life was saved and my pain is now tolerable and my mind is at peace again. Came dangerously close to leaving here but Dr. Brooks quick reply to my cry for help gave me the strength not to go through with my plan and wait the two days for the ketamine treatment. It is truly a miracle that I am still here. Last time I tried to take my life I saw a darkness so scary that it had been saving myself. Things had started to get so bad in my personal life that that scary darkness started to look comforting and inviting and much better than staying here and suffering. I know that was pure evil trying to take my soul to eternal hell which there is no co ing back from. For 5 years I have been being abused by my 24 year old daughter physically, mentally and financially. I have tried everything and anything to remove her and also her abusive boyfriend from house. From orders of protection to commitment letter to Adult Protective Services with no results. Finally after being turned down by Legal Aid 3 times I contacted the head of Legal Aid in my county and he is going to help me and she will be served by this Monday. She and the boyfriend have already pretty much destroyed my beautiful home and once she is served I am sure will do much more damage until she is taken out of my home. Only because of the ketamine infusions and all the support I have gotten on here and through facebook groups have I found the strength to fight again and finally get help. My daughter is the one who actually gave me Complex Regional Pain Syndrome or RSD by assaulting me this past January after I was already disabled with MS, Fibromyalgia, PTSD, a brain injury from ECT, with a concussion also from my daughters assault. I'm leaving about 20 other things as to not make this longer than I already have. I consider myself very lucky to have you all here and owe my life also to the people that have gone out of their way to keep me informed and to make me feel cared about. The kindness showed to me is something I will never forget as long as I am on this earth. Much love and blessings to all of you.

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Hi everybody, I have sent a message to the site to share my email address and full name so anybody can contact me on facebook or by email. All that needs to be done for anybody who would like to have more private contact and to write to the site also and ask for my information. Thanks again and wishing everyone a pain free day.

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Dear Mary,

I'm super happy that you are doing well. Im also very happy and impressed by your positive attitude and belief in God.

I'm planning to undergo ketamine treatment with Dr. Brooks most probably starting next week based on your strong recommendation about him. Who knows, we might bump into each other.

If not, I'd be game for seeing you somewhere if the feeling is mutual (hopefully) :) knock on wood.

Many blessings and prayers for all especially Mary,
Iron

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Nihilisa,

I agree about the MAOIs. Death by cheese is a ridiculous risk, and almost every other medication says do not take with MAOIs.

As far as insurance goes, you may find a problem in that ketamine has been around for a long time, and is a generic drug. The catch is that nobody can patent it, and therefore nobody will pay to get it approved as a treatment for depression. There are apparently similar compounds coming through the pipeline. I do not know the status of its use in treatment of pain.

I know this thread is about ketamine, but I'll answer your question about rTMS anyhow. Basically it is a treatment where they use a coiled electromagnet to create a very focused microcurrent at a specific point, (or points) in the prefrontal cortex. From what I understand, a high frequency wave potentiates/stimulates, and lower frequency de-potentiates/de-stimulates. I think it is basically getting your brain to a more normal equilibrium (like a set-point, or homeostasis). What works for me is sequential, bilateral treatment, where they stimulate the left side (associated with depression) and de-stimulate the right (associated with anxiety). I managed to get into a study a few years ago and after the first week I had gone from severely depressed to my main worry whether I was in the sham group, because I felt normal (which was wonderful) and what would happen if I found out this was a placebo reaction? Anyhow, it turned out to be a real treatment, and for me it produced fantastic results on depression, anxiety, and sleep, with no side effects. There may be studies in your area, and if not, you might want to check if medicaid covers the treatment. I know they were in the process of giving it a billing code a few years ago.

I understand that you have experience with medications similar to ketamine, but what I was suggesting was finding out from published research studies about this particular drug, because knowing this may make it easier to talk to your physician. Especially if your own experience is with medications that the doctor is not likely to have prescribed before, you will probably be better off working from what he/she is familiar with, and the style of information that they consider professional.

You've probably read the other postings in this thread. I don't know much about the pain medication issue, aside from the danger, but it sounds like something you should look into both to prevent problems, and because it might play an important role in justifying treatment, or how the doctor proceeded.

You sound like a real survivor, someone who has been through a lot and has a real core of strength. Please let me know if you find a doctor, and whether she/he decides to treat or not, I think it would be useful for us to know how it played out. I hope you also take a look at rTMS, either under Medicaid, or through a research study. It seems to be helping a significant chunk of people who have very treatment resistant depression.

Best Wishes,
Cai

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I just got to NYC last week and am going to undergo Ketamine infusion with Dr. Brooks starting tomorrow. I really want this to work so all fingers crossed.

I'm so sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope you are doing better than before. I totally hate it when the health issues screw up one's life in totally unimaginable ways. But please hang in there. You'll make it through!

Best wishes

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Dear Cai:

Thank you for your response. Dr. Brooks is insisting the ketamine did not cause my bladder infection and wants me to continue with the ketamine trouches. I have my insurance giving me,permission to see a Dr. Datta in Hackensack, N.J.. Praying it comes through this week. I have never tried the TMS therapy. I have heard about it but my insurance didn't cover that either so I just forgot about it. I will bring it up to the new Dr when I finally see him. Thank you for saying I am strong. I have to admit I realized that the other night. I know the strength only comes from my faith in God and the comfort He brings me, and I also have to say I get a lot of comfort and strength from our group here, especially you my friend. My temporal lobe damage has been getting worse from the CRPS/RSD but no one believes me. Unfortunelty I've forgotten your whole message and can't remember everything you said. Maybe the fact I just turned 53 doesn't help either. I do remeber you said the TMS therapy is working for you. I pray it continues to do so. Thank you for you continued support. Love, Mary

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Does Ketamine help with depression, and if so, how can I get a prescription for some?

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Tiffany,
Ketamine is generally only used to treat depression (alleviate symptoms) in cases of severely treatment resistant depression. Many, if not most, people find that traditional antidepressants help them. Doctors will usually try a course of treatment with a SSRI, and if that does not work, try another antidepressant from a slightly different category, then try another, then try adjunctive medications (adding a mood stabilizer or anxiety med). The people who do not find any or enough relief with a number of trials of different antidepressants may (and this is my suspicion) have a different type of depression than those who find conventional treatments work.

That was my long-winded prelude to asking if you are trying to find information on ketamine treatment for depression because you have tried most of the other antidepressant categories, and are looking at a relatively experimental/new treatment like ketamine because nothing else works...or you've heard it can provide relief from depression quickly, or because it is one of the newer treatments it sounds like it must be an improvement. I'll try to check my email over the next few days, and respond once I know more about your situation. In the meantime, let me say that for a significant portion of those with treatment-resistant depression, ketamine therapy provides temporary relief from symptoms.

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Wow. Just chiming in to say that caiguise is 100% right and obviously knows what's what. So good to see solid information and advice on message boards! As a patient, I'm grateful.

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