New White Watson 853 10/325 Problem - What Is Going On!? (Page 11)
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Hello all,

I am a longtime chronic pain sufferer. I have taken opiates for pain for over 10 years. I recently got a prescription filled (from a well known pharmacy chain in the U.S.) and I was given these new Watson 853 white (not yellow) hydro 10/325 pills. I wanted to ask the forum here if any of you have had the same experience with them as I have. I know there are some very smart people with advanced chemistry knowledge here that may have delved deeper into whats going on with these things. They are ineffective for me. I've taken hydrocodone 10/325 for 10+ years and have never ever had a problem with pills being ineffective but that is the case with these pills. I've had about every brand you can think of and never an issue. Ever. I thought nothing of the color change when I got the pills home from the pharmacy... I've had the yellow Watson 853's before and figured they just changed the coloring. I've seen people complain before about differences in brands before, but I've never experienced anything like that.... Mallies, Watson, Qualitst... all the same to me. I didn't start looking around for answers until I noticed these pills were not working well at all. Something is 100% wrong.

Based on some initial research I do see that they have taken the yellow dye out but there are other reports from people with the same issues as I see. Obviously you just don't know how reputable some of these reports are... I've seen posts talk about pharmacists telling the patient that the pills now are structured to release hydrocodone slower (even though its an IR pill... what?)... that Actavis/Watson employees have claimed there could be "kinetic imbalances" in their formulation when upset customers have called them... etc.

The only truth I know is that there is something amiss with these things. Any response would be appreciated from you guys.... experiences/info/links to other similar reports, etc. This is the most frustrating thing I have ever run into and it just doesn't make much sense to me at the moment with whats going on....and the implications this could have if these pills have been truly altered by the manufacturer in some way.

I know it doesn't mean much to just say it on an internet forum, but I'm not the type to cry wolf over something like this. I realize it could be a bad batch I've received, but it looks initially like the problem is more widespread.

TIA for any responses to this thread! I came here because I believe this site has people that have the intelligence/knowledge to get to the bottom of it. Again, any info at all in relation to this would be appreciated greatly.

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Dear Hokie,
I also suffer from chronic pain but I am terribly allergic to all painkillers--I was once hospitalized for anaphylactic shock-- except Panadol--which is not very effective either.I use natural therapies, Ayurvedic remedies, oil and electric massages, and take supplements such as Strontium, a bone builder, hyaluronic acid+MSM tablets, and yes a glass of milk with a spoon of turmeric powder and some pieces of chopped raw ginger and honey in it, every night, helps give slightly more restful sleep.
My biggest problem is an injured knee, for which I also apply a weekly poultice, which I order from an Indian Ayurvedic website. These herbal sites and remedies are worth exploring as they do not do any harm, or give allergies..

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Why don't you all get together and file a legal suit against the manufacturers if you'll feel this strong and quit complaining if you're not doing anything. I was a user and a nurse. 'Was' being the operative word. Or get another pain med without fillers of any kind. Good luck. God bless.

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Hoper posted on February 3, 2016 that there is "no conspiracy going on," and that this current problem re: inferior quality hydrocodone is due to the patient's tolerance.
I think you have oversimplified the issue by a longshot, Hoper, and here is why:
Do you think all of the people who have posted here just suddenly, coincidentally, developed a recent tolerance to the extent that they have all begun to notice a distinct change in the quality of the pill in question? Please note, most of them are increasing their dosages simply to achieve the effect they're used to achieving, but many of them say they still detect a difference in the overall quality of the pill, despite the increased dosages.

As I have stated before - and others have agreed - this is not simply a problem with - oh, here we go again -- the fillers. If that assertion comes down the pike one more time I think I'll vomit. If you want to point to fillers, however, I'll concede this much: It seems almost indisputable to me and to others that they're adding other ingredients to these pills besides the "fillers" of yesteryear. Those fillers were bad enough, but now the pills contain -- again, this is my opinion and that of many others, as well -- other undeclared ingredients along with a decrease in the active narcotic ingredient. You know, the main ingredient that gives the painkiller medication its authenticity.
Well, so much for credibility nowadays.
One more thing: Just because patients are not flooding message boards to express their dissatisfaction with their medication does not mean these people do not exist.
It so happens that many people feel uncomfortable posting on public boards. Just as common a scenario is the one involving complaints to drug manufacturers, the DEA, etc. etc. etc. The majority of people find it easier to do nothing, while erroneously believing that "someone else" will make the calls or do the writing, or start the petition or, well, post on the message board.
My hunch is as I've already said: change will happen - eventually - but not until human lives are either seriously harmed or worse. Then we MIGHT find out just what they've been putting in these bogus pills we're paying out the *** for, generic.



If you read through these posts you'll see that even an increase in dosing does not appreciably alter the overall quality of these corrupted meds. Yes, I said, "corrupted," or "adulterated," or whatever word would be appropriate; it's all the same.

And Hoper, have you thought of it this way? The DEA, along with the pharmaceutical companies and drug manufacturers, medical insurers, and even the large chain druggists, for the most part, all stand to gain from this covert travesty being carried on behind the public's backs. So it's win-win-win-win for those entities, while the patient only stands to lose.

I believe it will take something more serious than the public's collective complaining to any of the above "winners" in this scheme. What it will take is serious illnesses or death occurring as the result of the tampering that we strongly believe is going on right now with pharmaceutical drugs.

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White Watson's do nothing except make me sleepy And nauseated. No pain relief.
Something has got to be done.

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I was having severe muscle spasims to the extreme the spasims broke my #8 rib; so I asked my Doc for valium. My long time and trusted doctor insisted that I try the Watson. He was dismayed when I came back just a little upset, disapointed to say the least. I think you may have stumbled accross something here on these WHITE WATSONS!!! something smells fishy here????

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Kate, wal-greens does that to most people now especially if they do not have a life-threatening illness. It is not just you. Try not to let things like that upset you. If you legitimately need the medication, you should not let someone else make you feel as tho you don't. Go to a mom and pop pharmacy and get to know the people there. They need the money and are much nicer to deal with.

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Jesse,

You might go to a mom and pop pharmacy (not a big name pharmacy) and ask if they can order the Brand for you. They are much better at this and usually will but you may have to pay out of pocket which I think would be worth it.

I definitely did not know that about generics. That is ridiculous, especially when you think you are getting one thing but actually you are getting another. Wow! No wonder they are so cheap.

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Walgreens is TERRIBLE!!! I had to go to another pharmacy to get my pain meds. filled, they were rude and flat out refused to fill my script regardless of what my doctor told them. I am now tapering off myself because I'm so tired of being treated like a drug addict. Hopefully I will find another way to deal with my pain. I just don't understand how a pharmacist gets the authority to decide how to treat a patient rather than their doctor without even knowing that patient's medical condition and even if they did know of the condition, how much could they really tell you about it and the pain it causes?

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Where do you get that information that a generic hydrocodone 10/325 or whatever varies in strength.Curious where that comes from.Thanks

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Jesse, no one from the general public is going to be able to find out the info you're looking for by calling the manufacturers. It is legal for the manufacturers of generics to put a lesser amount of the active ingredients in a generic than is in a brand. For example if you get a brand medicationa dn it says that it has 10 mg, it has 10 mg. If you get a generic and it says it has 10 mg, it can have anywhere from 8 mg-12 mg in the dose that says 10 mg.

I would recommend going to the pharmacys in the richest part of town where you live and going in and talking to the Pharmacist. Be sure it is the Pharmacist and tell them that you need to get the brand and you will be getting another prescription on such and such date and you were wondering if they carry the brand. I will tell you now that your insurance company won't pay for the brand and the brand is very expensive. The only chance you have of your insurance possibley paying for a brand is if you have tried most of the other generics and have had life threatening allergic reactions or receivied little to no benefits from them. Your dr will also have to put this down on a form and the insurance company may ask for copies of your medical records as proof. Your dr will also have to write on the prescription "Brand Name Medically Indicated" "Generic Selection Not Permitted"

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Im glad someone else notices these changes too. Im disabled and have been taking percocet for my pain and fiorecet for my migranes. Since i now have to take the generics (because every pharmacy have told me they dont carry name brand anymore) i have noticed a huge difference. I have talked to the pharmacist about this because my migrane medicine as i told him that now
I have to take one and a half where i never had to do that also some of the fillers they put in the generics make me sick because of my stomach problems and ulcer. The pharmasist told me that the fda has approved up to 30 percent less of the medicine in generics. Is this true? Ive called the manufacturer of the name brand medicines to find out what pharmacys do they ship to (because i cant believe no pharmacy in my city dont carry name brand) There way around that answer was; well it goes thru at list six distributors before it even gets to a pharmacy. That just dont makes since to me especially when your a big manufacturer. Seems like they would have to know medicine and quantities of the destinations of where it will end up know matter how many distributors you go through just for this reason as one example. Now it messes up my medicine because of this problem and of course the doctors wont change your quanity because they wont believe you because your just another person not the manufacturer then they think your just trying to get more medicine even when i have told them that i called the manufacturers and gave my doctor the numbers to call but im pretty sure they already know anyway then they treat you differently. I cant believe how many hoops you have to jump thru only to get no where.

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Lauren, when a pharmacist makes speciality meds, it is referred to as Compounding. They won't be compounding a prescription medication that a manufacturer makes. The meds they compound have different ingredients and amounts than the available prescription drugs/ For example, they would not be compounding a med that was hydrocodone 10 mg/acetaminophen 325 mg, because that is available by prescription. But, they could compound hydrocodone 15 mg/acetaminophen 325 mg because no manufacturer makes that.

michael, Norco Is Habit Forming. It is hydrocodone in either 5, 7.5 or 10 mg and acetaminophen 325 mg. The Brand Names for Hydrocodone and Acetaminophen are Lortab, Norco and Vicodin. A dr can write a prescription and write Norco on it, but that doesn't mean that the insurance company will pay for a Brand due to the cost. If the dr wants a patient to have the brand, they have to write on the prescription Dispense As Written or Generic Selection Not Permitted. But, that doesn't mean that the insurance company will pay for it.

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Try Wal mart they the one by me had the yellows but that was a few years ago.

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They should be the same I've gotten white and yellow I believe it's just a different manufacturers

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I am a chronic pain patient myself and I ACTUALLY HATE IT! Been for 10 years plus myself. Only knowledge I can give is that people and pharmacists say that it's the FILLER that can screw with some people and I totally BELIEVE what you are saying cuz I've been thru sane thing and still am!!!

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Bl, its possible the m357 may be coming to an end even though my dad receives the m357 through the va which actually is 10/325 at least what his bottle says maybe only the VA holds that particular brand for as many as they buy and price no other pharmacy wants to pay that price do to competition wars but i do know back in the day (im 45 now) the only vicodin i remember being available was the 355, 356, and the 357 i would almost believe that is the true and not generic type of hydrocodone/not norco. norco simply is defined as non habit forming/that was or still is out there. I know when i compare the m357 to my script 853 by far 357 works way better but then again sometimes they are not all exact i read somewhere where every pill could have a + or - of 20 percent 1 pill may only hold 8mg and another 12mg those machines have to be pretty precise to be in exact mg every pill for the millions they make every day im sure im getting ready for major lower back surgery and i feel fortunate for being in pain management and having a hydrocodone script and ms script even if they are generic not to say i havent been abusing them a tad lately due to my pain level but dont want to ask my doctor for anything stronger due to already being hooked on opiates/for/years if there is a true 10/325 hydrocodone that isnt generic out there that started its patent i would like to know where being as its probably not being made anymore even before the m357 and that everybody these days that takes hydrocodone is taking a generic form of that pill i dont remember anything else besides m357 say 30 years ago all pills these days are being highly regulated to where nobody is getting all the milligrams for however many pills they may have or get not good for people that really need it to cope with work and everyday activities due to an injury. I maybe wrong about the word norco to everybody calls them that i have only heard the word norco means non habit forming if true i think the dea is trying to come up with a formula so people wont be hooked on em maybe. Bye for now

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To my knowledge Some mom and pop pharmacies have the authorization to mix and press their own medication. Maybe you have received a bad batch, or maybe they're trying to turn back the times and get people off this medicine. I totally understand what you're going through - I have completely gotten myself off of opiates because they were not effective anymore. The last ones that works really good for me were the Watson blue lortabs. Ever since then every pill after that has been non effective or I had to take double the dosage. I am clean and dealing with my pain on a day to day basis, maybe you should switch your pharmacy and see if that changes. The pharmacy is allowed to mix their own chemicals and press them into a pill form that means they're not doing it right, but you still paying the cost for the medicine, even with insurance for you.

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I have the same issue with the yellow Norco. They do not work for me. I found that the regular white vicodin 7.25/325 works better. It's crazy but very true. I would like a answer as well.

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Ok, if going off the mechanism of release i know i had someone who always complained about the gg xanax. They are the same way if you crush the gg's up before taking orally you will feel them like the yellow or green or white brands, so maybe try crushing them before swallowing... I have a friend who won't take any tablets but the watson brand and says the others mess w her stomach.

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You need to ask your pharmacist to get the Qualitest brand. It is the only one that works because of the variation percentage in the opiate content as provided by the gov't. I use Express Scripts mail order pharmacy and they are able to get these for me. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to do anything. Good luck.

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