Subutex Question For Someone That Really Really Really Knows! (Page 2) (Top voted first)

Looooong read. I warn you now :)

Ok. PLEASE don't explain how it works or what it does. Save yourself the time. I am extremely familiar with how it works and what it does.

But I have a question that's been on my mind for many moons, forever actually (10 plus years) and I can't seem to get a straight answer to it no matter how many times I ask it and where I ask it. I am asking it here for the first time.

Just always get the usual, familiar rhetoric explaining to me how it works and where it binds and what it does, blah blah blah, but no one ever can explain the "why" behind all this wonderful science!

And at the end have one first hand case PROVING what I'm questioning to be true.

Ok so follow. So if buprenorphine is stronger than and has a higher affinity than let's say Oxycodone as a real life example, and will kick off that opioid from the receptor, this meaning it "replaces" it and fills it, then WHY bother waiting to take it?

Immediately or 24 hours later, either way, it's going to sit in that same receptor and do the exact same job!!!

I'm so tired of reading about this precipitated withdrawal crap. Now, tired of reading about it does NOT equate to not believing it. You would be an ***** not to believe it because there are just too many cases of it to be ignored so it's a real thing. I just don't understand WHY it's a real thing?

Because I cannot POSSIBLY imagine why having the opiate kicked off the receptor immediately, or having the remains of it kicked off 24 hours later, can produce such drastic night and day results?

Heck, I've know addicts that were given Narcan to reverse overdoses who didn't go through such pain as you read about some people trying to come off with Subutex or suboxone too soon and not waiting long enough!

24 stinking hours? Seriously? I mean I just don't understand WHY it would be ANY more painful OR horrible OR agonizing to just take the Subutex at anytime you want whether it's during opiate intake, an hour after Intake, or 24 hours after opiate intake, either way, no matter WHEN it is done, it is going to perform the exact same function. It's going to kick it off and replace anything that's in its way!

So why if you took it too soon would you go into agonizing withdrawal? You should NOT be going into ANY withdrawal whatsoever even if you take it immediately, because it immediately fills the receptor and prevents withdrawal.

I mean that's the entire purpose of this drug is to prevent withdrawal. That's what it is designed to do. That's what it's made to do. Whether you take it immediately or 24-36 hours later?

I mean if it took a couple weeks after you stopped taking opioids to go into withdrawal and then you could use Subutex maybe I could understand why it would matter if you did it immediately but 24 hours? That's absurd to my brain!

Now for the proof I was speaking of. After enduring watching my wife going on and off Suboxone a dozen plus times, each and every time having to watch her in agony as she detoxed off Percocets for 24 hours first. (Heavily researched this drug before I tried to put her on it for the first time and had that SAME question THEN 10 years ago)

Sitting back and watching her do something that I had ALWAYS considered to be useless, what I ALWAYS considered to be needless and what I ALWAYS considered to be nothing more than a ploy the doctors PURPOSEFULLY do as well as the manufacturer, that is to put the patient into DEEP detox so they can become their NEW PIMP, and heroes and rescuers, I ran across a small psychiatrist in Texas..

Giving up on explaining my theory to him as I had already convinced myself there was no need to detox first, was only being done to hook the patients on a very expensive product, the psychiatrist started laughing when I asked him about the usual 24 hour detox.

He became my white knight in shining armor when he said "no that's ridiculous, Suboxone will immediately replace the opiates and there's no advantage one way or the other to doing a detox first"

Smiling from ear to ear but refraining from telling him I have always thought that, for the first time after dozens of times I gave it to my wife WITHOUT waiting and guess what?

Yep that's right, she immediately responded, felt great, and took up right where she left off after just doing a couple Percocets a couple hours before, thus proving that she NEVER needed to do that 24 hours first as I have always thought.

But my question remains, I have seen far too many documented stories of precipitated withdrawal as well as read tons of agonizing stories that were NOT precipitated but just more or less people who went through living hell by doing it too soon... when there's absolutely no medical or scientific reason why they should have???

What gives???

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A few hours is all needed for Perks..Try a few hours later with long halflife opiate like Methadone

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Re: Master Plumber (# 32)

That post was in response to #30 specifically, regarding mechanism of action of agonist- antagonist drugs, and not to the original post.

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Re: Master Plumber (# 36)

I bet if we took a poll all PERCIPATED withdraws would be due to Suboxone NOT Subutex I'd bet my life on it cause all 5x's were on suboxone not subutex. I've done the same with subutex(only waited 5hrs) and had no Perc. WITHDRAWS so hope that helps

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Re: Addxn Doc (# 37)

I know I know I’m an idiot!!! I make that mistake constantly because I’m not really a regular here.

And to make it worse??? Look below at post # 34. Talk about STUPID. I actually read my OWN response to someone else and THOUGHT it was a response to me and then replied to myself about how stupid the response was!!!!! LMAO.

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Re: Kim (# 40)

Of COURSE it matters dummy! Did you even bother to read my post? No, evidently not... because the reason it matters is MAJOR. Individuals will not have to go through hell detoxing for 24 hours first...DUH

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And yes it’s a long read! TOO LONG! DO U THINK SOMEBODY CAN REMEMBER THE QUESTION AFTER ALL YOUR RAMBLEING ON!!! AND ON AND ON!!?

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Re: Master Plumber (# 48)

Think I would go with the guy who lived it three decades myself. You insinuate Dr's don't know s*** with your long babble. And continue the finished conversation. You like to seem important I guess? Even making comments about the number of replies. I'll take substance over quantity.

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Thanks for the amusement. I wonder if you've ever even taken a sub. How long are you going to continue arguing on your thread? I'm going to keep notifications on, as every reply gets me a good 15-20 seconds of giggling.

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Hi, thank you for writing about this issue. I've been on subutex since 2007 8mg x 4 daily. So I also have alot of knowledge about buprenorphine. A few times I did try to get detox off with no luck. My last attempt was in june. I decided this time to go back to a pain management dr... He gave me the usual detox meds along with percocet 10s x 4 daily. I took my last sub in the morning a few hours later when my script was filled I didn't have to wait any period of time he said even if I told my last sub in the morning to take it whenever I can...so 9 days later and didn't finish the detoxing off subs. He gave me my subutex script and said go get it filled and start taking your subs anytime you want..the drs. Back when I started buprenorphine treatment in 2007bthey always all said you have to wait to take your new scripts when your in deep detox. There is no need to wait...the newish doctors now a days don't seem to follow that old rule anymore. I've helped alot of people with new buprenorphine treatments. And their dr. gave the medicine right away, no waiting 24 hours anymore. You have written this so well. I hope others are read this because there is no reason to put yourself through the hell of detox.

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Not sure but it has happened to me 3-4 times in 10 yrs!!! N yes it does suck, dont know the WHY but im living proof n my best friend has happened to him same amount of times over the same period of time. Maybe they were just bad Strips or bad suboxone pills I wish I knew why so I could avoid it happening. Hope this is slightly helpfull.

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Subutex has a different physical structure (as in chemical) so it DOES NOT have the same stimulation as Oxycodone or any other narcotics. Is that the answer to your why?

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Re: Master Plumber (# 6)

My husband took Morphine, Opana, for 4 years before his hip replacement 3 years ago. His hip and back were killing him...this man doesn't complain. I gave him less that 1/4 of a strip and he threw up and felt like s*** for almost 2 days.

So with no opiates in his system why would this happen to him?

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Re: WillChillRNMS (# 5)

Unfortunately not :) that's not taking it a step further. The point I'm trying to make is that scenario is the exact same in one hour or 24 hours. It doesn't matter that the chemical structure is different. The structure remains the same at one hour or 24 hours

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MrB1982 (# 9) --

Your reply deserves a longer response than I can give you right now because I'm driving For the next 8 hours :) but quickly keep in mind that Subutex doesn't have Naxalone in it so even if that was true it would only apply to Suboxone only :) But it was a fantastic response!!!!! :)

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Re: Ridgerunner007 (# 16)

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. I was on fentanyl for over 18 years. I was up to 150 mg. The only reason I stopped was because im an alcoholic and I relapsed after 18yrs. I know it sucks but I went to rehab n the part of the hospital did not allow any narcotics so they put me on 8mg 3 times a day of suboxone. U know they said I was going to go through horrible withdrawal from being on fentanyl so long. Well I didn't at all. I was even surprised, but my psych. Dr told me he wasn't suprised. He goes, u have to be one of the worst chronic pain patients I know. He said, u fell 30 feet. U are so lucky to be alive. But that happened in 1992 when they told me that I would never work again. I bought my own bread route, cause no company would hire me after they gave me a physical. I have a lot of scares. I worked for 20 years even on artificial hips, knees, pins in my ankles, lost my right wrist, fused lower back. 36 operations. I only stopped cause I was putting too much stress on my hips and knees. Either I keep working or wheelchair. Anyhow the dr. Told me that when u are taking meds that your helping your body v.s. taking meds recreationally. It's a lot easier to get off of drugs u need, but I hated that suboxone. Do you know that is more addictive than most drugs? I just stopped taking it. My dr said I was lucky I didn't go through a bad withdrawal. When I got out of rehab I got back on fentanyl and I tried to not take anything cause I like to prove dr's wrong. I didn't want to believe that I had chronic pain but omg I do. Back on just 50mg fentanyl which is not working and the dr just put me on percocet 10/325. I hate them. But be careful with suboxone. It does work with withdrawal but then u have to get off those. Sorry for babbling...

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Buprenorphine is the drug that attaches itself to the receptors and the naloxone is to block overdosing. Detox varies from 7 days or 21 days. To mix/misuse this drug with other opiates is foolish. You don't have to be critical of people who are trying to help. In fact if you did your research and discuss the matter with a registered addictive therapist you wouldn't be so frivolous and asinine. Thank you for your time...

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Re: RAWDOG (# 2)

Yes, I just waited 48 hours since last dhoti dermal n was put in pwd for 10 hours until I couldn't stand anymore. Silicone, subutex & zubsolv have all put me in pwd. Even on my 3rd day without dosing it's terrible. Wait till u r full-grown sick n take 2mg pieces at a time to evade it. It does put u in pwd. The more u take, the longer and more severe pwd will be.

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Re: Master Plumber (# 32)

For someone who has been in pain management for 12yrs, I just yesterday took off a 25mcg Fentanly patch and had my last two oxymorphone 30mg ER's. 5hrs later was not feeling that good. So I had 3 suboxone not subutex pills and took three quarters of one. 2hrs later PRECIPITATED WITHDRAWALS!!!!! YUP Friggin horrible, only the 5th time this had happened in 12yrs. My god I thought I was gonna die. 4 hours later I took the other quarter and started to feel better. 5 hrs later, another half and 5 hours after that another half. I just finally started feeling better 30hrs later, so that's my story!!

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Re: Master Plumber (# 9)

LMAO!!! So you think my post was about “singing the attributes of Suboxone”??? Wow...not even close!!! And this thread is just perfectly fine and wondering why you even bothered posting?

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Re: Winston Dr (# 30)

Oh wow!!!! I apologize, as I did NOT see your prior post, only the short one that I got an email alert for. So I do stand corrected AND...I think you have NAILED at least one aspect of the issue and you have indeed provided a possible answer and makes PERFECT sense now that you explained it :)

However I will add that my wife has always been on Suboxone and NEVER Subtex so your answer would not address her. So only way to figure that out is to take a poll and see if the ones that went into precipitated withdrawal were on Suboxone and not Subutex.

Still...I like what you said :)

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